Yeah agreed.. Though you say 'eventually' regarding the flame war, I'd say it would be a flame war after 2 posts..

I heard the Lupo cars are some fun online. I'd say thats the main thing you might get out of rFactor; a good bit of fun. Car dynamics are just not quite there. I see the front springs of the Lupo are 160.000 N/m which sounds really really stiff! There is only about 250kg of load on each front tyre, perhaps this could get 350 under hard cornering or braking. 100kg is about 1000N so this would cause the suspension to move 6.25 millimeters under the braking or turning. It may peak higher but still you'd have a hard time causing more than 1cm of suspension travel on the front! That is way too stiff. The rear springs of 50.000 are still very 'stiff' considering the cars small weight and the idea that you want the rear suspension to be quite soft. If the real lupos run these wheelrates, I'd be quite surprised, and the drivers would be missing teeth at the end of a race..

But of course, a real lupo racer said it 'rawks' so its an uber mod and anyone who dares critisize will be stoned.. ahhhh the times we live in

If its the rear, then its very weird. If you can reproduce this and telemetry (MOTEC works with rFactor I believe) shows the REAR leaving skidmarks, well.. LOL!

rFactor replays are not very 'exact', unlike LFS where all the car dynamics are visible in the replay.

The inside front could well be spinning with an open diff or at least a not very 'tight' diff. rFactor makes this a lot worse than it really is, including the Lupo mod, by using very generous amounts of grip dropoff for a sliding versus a rolling tyre. So inside wheelspin, or lockups under braking, reduce the tyre grip way too much and as such require a lot of letting go of which ever pedal you're on to dial the tyre back into shape.

With rFactor mods you can pretty much also count on some main things like suspensions, car inertias and 'aero' to be dodgy, at the very best.

There also are, or at least seem to be some hard coded things wrong with the tyre physics in rFactor, on which even the best 'mod team' has no influence.

Edit: why ask on the LFS forum?!

LFS has flaws as well. Quite surely something really isn't quite right fundamentally, i.e. regardless of how 'accurate' the data put into the physics, the outcome won't be quite that. It is also not impossible that LFS has a few 'dodgy' variables for its cars, its all too easy to get it a bit wrong. Mostly though, the data that feeds LFS seems quite a bit better, making both fundamentally somewhat flawed but LFS at least scoring solid extra points for trying harder to get it right.

Last edited by Niels Heusinkveld, Fri, 4 May 2007 21:36.

bah!

These demos look impressive.. I was actually more impressed by some old demos.. I mean we have 2ghz+ with plenty of 3D power at our disposal.

There are a few demos designed to run on a C64. The C64 had a 2mhz cpu! Really a piece of crap..

http://www.c64.ch/demos/list.php?source=topdownloaded

the top one there should run on emulators.. ah well youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... p;mode=related&search=

the smoothness of animation.. the actual display.. on such a CRAP 1980 console? Very very impressive, technically that is, can't stand the music.

Unless Nick really knew the track very very well.. but even then, attacking in a car that he has never driven there before would've been a bit mad..

You'd have to be as devoted and mad as the Group C guys where in 1983 (?) to set a really fast time.

I kinda like Nick, he's down to earth and quick. I was glad to read he loved every second of it!

The rotation isn't the only 'variable'. While using 200 degrees probably makes the cars 'too easy', the abundance of wheel resistance would make 720 degrees on a DFP wheel 'too hard'. It is a compromise with todays FF wheels, and it isn't right to say 'real car = 900 then sim car = 900' because you're forgetting about the 'cheapness' of most simracing controls.. There is probably a middle ground somewhere between real and 200 degrees.

Yep, they use the Force(sensor).. Not quite the pedal force I want to use but a big step up from just about all other pedals, including the more expensive ones.

Technically that is not a good thing though. Brake pedals are force sensitive in real life (pressure sensitive if you will).. so if you press twice as hard, the actual force with which the brake disc is clenched by the calipers doubles. When you introduce 'rubber' type things to pedals that use motion detection (potentiometers) you can quite seriously f$#$k up the brake sensitivity. This will be most notable with downforce cars where you can / have to brake a lot harder at speed with high downforce levels.

I'd say, either do it properly and get a real force sensitive pedal or leave your default springs in the pedal. Squashballs just mess the pedal response up quite a bit!

It can be difficult to do in simracing, even with the right equipment. I haven't quite put my finger on it but either:
- I suck
- The brake G forces in reality and seat of pants feel help you stay near the optimum brakes easier in reality
- I really just suck..

Not sure about that..

I can drive fine using heel&toe but I'm just at least one second slower as braking doesn't happen as smoothly as the throttle blips always influence the brake pedal force a bit.

In LFS you can 'cheat' somewhat by deliberatly weaking the brakes so they mostly don't lock up under 100% braking.. Thats not the way I want to do it though.

Do make sure that the PS3 accepts 110...240V input!

Realistically though you could see this comming? The current version is what everybody plays so getting the 'old' version isn't the best of ideas.. Throw in another 12 and you get a far better game and you'll find people actually playing it

This is the realistic mod that has the lateral tyre grip peak somewhere between 30 and 53 degrees depending on the load on the tyre.. I've said that before but its so crazy that its worth repeating.

Damage is another point, you'd really give especially single seaters a VERY hard beating if you ran over them the way you can do in LFS. But human damage too.. Your teeth will fall out!

I do wonder how it can be so stable in LFS though, its as if braking fully on the kerbs is just as optimal even though the load on the tyres will not be constant. I'd expect a tyre to spend perhaps even some time in free air if you'd have a superslomo to watch. But even with LFS's rumble (some kerbs do seem to make the car shake indicating they're not flat) it doesn't upset braking..

Its a minor thing, I hope tyres get improved much more than this.

I've been watching some 'hotlaps' lately and it astounds me how much of the track you can (have to) use to get those quick times.

Like in blackwood, for T1 (the first slow righthander) people do most their braking on the curbs on the extreme left of the track. After the long straight, the two righthanders, people will often drive way out on the rumblethingies on the left. Before SF, in the approach of the left/right uphill turn, people tend to clobber the right side of the track.

There is no way this would be done in real life? Curbstones are not so dependable, and even if they'd have the same amount of grip as tarmac has, the wobbling about would definitely unsettle things. In general the dirt / dust / stones you would find outside the 'normal track' would really stop you from doing these things..

I hope future LFS versions will keep the racing on the grey stuff a bit more!

Whitmore, that is an easy mistake to make. The things you SEE in rFactor don't have to correspond with their physical properties! Remember the kart mod? 400kg karts. The absolute minimum (even then with too high inertias) to stop the engine from going crazy. I've encountered the issues on the 'lower limit' even with some single seaters; the thing just goes nuts.

I haven't tried overly heavy vehicles but its likely that the ISI engine just doesn't have a wide range of vehicles it can deal with. So even if the engine can do trucks; we'd need the TBC / HDV files to see what sort of a vehicle it actually is..

This must've been posted before but as long as we're on about sound, this is one of the better ones I've heard from the Audi S1. After a few corners he really uses his right foot

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TN5 ... p;mode=related&search=

Don't underestimate the tyres, though that clip of the BF1 didn't look incredibly bad to me.. The issues raised in this thread regarding the rubber is a physics model thing which is very likely applying to all the tyres in LFS, slicks or road.

But what would the fun be if there was no room for improvement?

This might show that if you can physically take the beatings of driving an F1 car, have good timing and keep concentration levels high throughout a race, it really isn't that difficult. The competition in GP2 was pretty harsh and those cars seemed to require more skills to drive, though not quite the physical stamina..

I do always say that if you 'ask' about overclocking you're likely not the 'tweaker' for it. There is plenty of information on the web, some of it is even correct! Its not difficult but you have to understand how things and frequencies influence eachother etc. Its mostly logic though. My experience is, people who ask aren't into it enough to really understand the do's and don'ts.

It really depends on what you buy. If you have low/medium end stuff, there is often a big gain to have. The margin on the 'top of the line' stuff is a lot lower.

My old CPU was a Duron 1400 but it modded into an Athlon xp and did 2500mhz. That is rather worthwhile! My current CPU is an 1800mhz AMD64 that is just as happy at 2500. Worthwhile. However, If I got a 4000+ thingy at 2.6 ghz, I might've gotten 2.9 or 3.0 out of it, not quite so worthwhile..

You have to be nerd enough for overclocking I guess..

Sounds like they are using the Test Drive Unlimited engine?

Wheels are really easy, even with Force Feedback. USB 1.0 offers more bandwith than a wheel needs. In fact, most mice/keyboards/wheels are 'low speed' USB devices, which only uses a tiny bit of the max USB 1.0 speed.

There are savegames floating around on the web that give you a 'player' that has completed most of the game, including hardcore mode being unlocked.

Hardcore mode definitely makes the cars grip levels drop. But it is VERY VERY obvious that they've fallen into the trap of unrealistic grip dropoff.. Sideways sliding and/or wheelspin reduces tyre grip to ice levels.

But then.. an 'arcade' game with a realistic mode that is 'too hard' is somewhat rare..

The first CTR



Was an outrageous car. 470hp, twin turbo, 1150kg, somewhat 'oversteery' if you wanted... That in 1987 where it in some ways outperformed and matched track pace of a F40.

It looks understated, just a 911 really.. but man was it incredibly insane at the time.

Since then, cars have gotten more outrageous and there isn't as much to improve / make more insane about todays top models. The point of RUF / AMG etc is just not as obvious as it was in the old days. Porsche has that new orange GT3 (?) which is sublime.. They have the Carrera GT which probably can't be improved..

Last edited by Niels Heusinkveld, Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:10. Reason : added parts piccy

RUF went for a sequential box. If that is as crap as the one Sabine had in her Porsche on the ring (vs the Caterham) that would be enough for me not to buy this one! (err )

I'm all for a 'capability test' at age 70 and then every 5 years or something.. Funny as this was to look at, it shows how incapable some people are.

My brothers father in law can't move his neck anymore.. so he just basically hopes everything is ok when he turns his steering wheel... :S